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	<title>Comments on: SL Grid Architecture Meeting</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.chilbo.org/blog/2007/09/sl-grid-architecture-meeting/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.chilbo.org/blog/2007/09/sl-grid-architecture-meeting/</link>
	<description>Building community in the metaverse..</description>
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		<title>By: Virtual Worlds 2008 - A Very Mixed Bag - Fleep&#8217;s Deep Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://www.chilbo.org/blog/2007/09/sl-grid-architecture-meeting/comment-page-1/#comment-91</link>
		<dc:creator>Virtual Worlds 2008 - A Very Mixed Bag - Fleep&#8217;s Deep Thoughts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 09:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chilbo.org/blog/?p=11#comment-91</guid>
		<description>[...] bleeding edge, and much of what he said had the ring of truth to it. The bring you back to earth, stop being such an idealistic Pollyana, cold hard reality ring of truth. Thanks, Sibley, for ripping the rose colored glasses from my [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] bleeding edge, and much of what he said had the ring of truth to it. The bring you back to earth, stop being such an idealistic Pollyana, cold hard reality ring of truth. Thanks, Sibley, for ripping the rose colored glasses from my [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Prokofy Neva</title>
		<link>http://www.chilbo.org/blog/2007/09/sl-grid-architecture-meeting/comment-page-1/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>Prokofy Neva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 04:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chilbo.org/blog/?p=11#comment-8</guid>
		<description>Fleep, there can&#039;t be any &quot;laboratories of democracy&quot; when there is such an unequal playing field, and the world that was first created by the best democracy so far in the Metaverse -- Second Life -- kills off its creation in the name of a fatuous, giddy, hasty, and greedy rush to &quot;become one with the Internet&quot; and &quot;compete with all the other geeks and game gods&quot;.

There isn&#039;t any capacity to &quot;do what you want&quot; when there is no way for people to pay for it. It means that only the rich can have their purple private Idahos, or the friends of the rich. People who need to monetarize what they are doing to have a presence on line cannot achieve this because there is no intellectual or real property rights. Communism doesn&#039;t work, people should realize this by now, it always leads to crime and destruction.

I don&#039;t think you can afford to be a Pollyana with these Lindens, not at all. Their track record has proven that they only understand force when it comes to the community&#039;s interests. That is, they&#039;re prepared to be the most generous and beneficient of all the game gods, and, as I said, create the best democracy (which is always the worst system...except for all the others).

But the minute you REALLY want to make a claim for what is said to be yours and you don&#039;t want to play along with the fanboyz, then you are discouraged, if not penalized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fleep, there can&#8217;t be any &#8220;laboratories of democracy&#8221; when there is such an unequal playing field, and the world that was first created by the best democracy so far in the Metaverse &#8212; Second Life &#8212; kills off its creation in the name of a fatuous, giddy, hasty, and greedy rush to &#8220;become one with the Internet&#8221; and &#8220;compete with all the other geeks and game gods&#8221;.</p>
<p>There isn&#8217;t any capacity to &#8220;do what you want&#8221; when there is no way for people to pay for it. It means that only the rich can have their purple private Idahos, or the friends of the rich. People who need to monetarize what they are doing to have a presence on line cannot achieve this because there is no intellectual or real property rights. Communism doesn&#8217;t work, people should realize this by now, it always leads to crime and destruction.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think you can afford to be a Pollyana with these Lindens, not at all. Their track record has proven that they only understand force when it comes to the community&#8217;s interests. That is, they&#8217;re prepared to be the most generous and beneficient of all the game gods, and, as I said, create the best democracy (which is always the worst system&#8230;except for all the others).</p>
<p>But the minute you REALLY want to make a claim for what is said to be yours and you don&#8217;t want to play along with the fanboyz, then you are discouraged, if not penalized.</p>
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		<title>By: Fleep</title>
		<link>http://www.chilbo.org/blog/2007/09/sl-grid-architecture-meeting/comment-page-1/#comment-7</link>
		<dc:creator>Fleep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:31:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chilbo.org/blog/?p=11#comment-7</guid>
		<description>Even if I assume that your assumptions are correct,   I think there is value in the conversation.  There was also discussion about Croquet and Multiverse and other virtual world platforms, and if LL implements something that truly penalizes the content creators, then I have every confidence that another system will take its place - and the issues of scalability, open sourcing, reliability AND the issues of permissions and property rights will be addressed on those systems as well.

I don&#039;t know what the right answers are, hell, with the technical guts of it, I don&#039;t even claim to understand what the _options_ are, but I hope by discussing it and participating, by doing my part to share that info with others, that it will spark good thoughts and conversation that will pay off, if not in Second Life, then in future iterations of virtual worlds.

I imagine something akin to the &quot;laboratories of democracy&quot; concept, many worlds with many systems and customs and protocols, that meet the needs of those who are using it.  If I&#039;m in a rush about anything, it&#039;s getting the technology into the hands of as many people as possible with as much openness and flexibility as possible.  

I DON&#039;T want the experience of virtual worlds to be in the hands of the few, I want it in the hands of the many.  You want a private Idaho, go for it,  or you want a shared region of themed sims, or a sim where there is no currency or no gravity or a purple sky, go for it.    I&#039;m really at a loss as to what your objection is.

Also, you should know, I&#039;m a Pollyana.  I assume the best about everyone until proven otherwise.  It&#039;s what allows me to remain an idealist, and better foes than you have tried unsuccessfully to beat that out of me, so let&#039;s not waste time on how naive I might be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if I assume that your assumptions are correct,   I think there is value in the conversation.  There was also discussion about Croquet and Multiverse and other virtual world platforms, and if LL implements something that truly penalizes the content creators, then I have every confidence that another system will take its place &#8211; and the issues of scalability, open sourcing, reliability AND the issues of permissions and property rights will be addressed on those systems as well.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what the right answers are, hell, with the technical guts of it, I don&#8217;t even claim to understand what the _options_ are, but I hope by discussing it and participating, by doing my part to share that info with others, that it will spark good thoughts and conversation that will pay off, if not in Second Life, then in future iterations of virtual worlds.</p>
<p>I imagine something akin to the &#8220;laboratories of democracy&#8221; concept, many worlds with many systems and customs and protocols, that meet the needs of those who are using it.  If I&#8217;m in a rush about anything, it&#8217;s getting the technology into the hands of as many people as possible with as much openness and flexibility as possible.  </p>
<p>I DON&#8217;T want the experience of virtual worlds to be in the hands of the few, I want it in the hands of the many.  You want a private Idaho, go for it,  or you want a shared region of themed sims, or a sim where there is no currency or no gravity or a purple sky, go for it.    I&#8217;m really at a loss as to what your objection is.</p>
<p>Also, you should know, I&#8217;m a Pollyana.  I assume the best about everyone until proven otherwise.  It&#8217;s what allows me to remain an idealist, and better foes than you have tried unsuccessfully to beat that out of me, so let&#8217;s not waste time on how naive I might be.</p>
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		<title>By: Prokofy Neva</title>
		<link>http://www.chilbo.org/blog/2007/09/sl-grid-architecture-meeting/comment-page-1/#comment-6</link>
		<dc:creator>Prokofy Neva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chilbo.org/blog/?p=11#comment-6</guid>
		<description>And just because YOU might be willing to hear the different sides of this, that can&#039;t prettify what Zero Linden and the rest of the Lindens are doing with this -- precooking, fixing, sanitizing, driving to complex wikis, steering, filtering. It&#039;s the usual Linden way.

I hope more people will start jumping up and down and screaming wildly about this, it&#039;s really a travesty. And the worst thing is that WE will be portrayed as Luddites and backward, and they will be portrayed as progressive, when they are the ones destroying a world, not us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And just because YOU might be willing to hear the different sides of this, that can&#8217;t prettify what Zero Linden and the rest of the Lindens are doing with this &#8212; precooking, fixing, sanitizing, driving to complex wikis, steering, filtering. It&#8217;s the usual Linden way.</p>
<p>I hope more people will start jumping up and down and screaming wildly about this, it&#8217;s really a travesty. And the worst thing is that WE will be portrayed as Luddites and backward, and they will be portrayed as progressive, when they are the ones destroying a world, not us.</p>
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		<title>By: Prokofy Neva</title>
		<link>http://www.chilbo.org/blog/2007/09/sl-grid-architecture-meeting/comment-page-1/#comment-5</link>
		<dc:creator>Prokofy Neva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chilbo.org/blog/?p=11#comment-5</guid>
		<description>Fleep, it is already a precooked conversation, and this illusion that you &quot;bring in people&quot; is meant to mollify people who are being screwed over. It&#039;s a joke.

The idea that &quot;nothing is set in stone&quot; when a) you&#039;ve already said that because the economy and the IP is too complex that it should just be ignored and you should press on with its destruction and b) because it takes awhile to do ths technology creates a total false impression. Because the entire construct of the thing is already hard-wired. It is hard-wired from the moment they first invite the maker and seller of Copybot to the table, and the reverse engineer of the server code to the table, when the TOS still says reverse-engineering is an offense. 

Then you realize that the approach is one of destruction, theft, and crime, in the guise of revolutionary expediency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fleep, it is already a precooked conversation, and this illusion that you &#8220;bring in people&#8221; is meant to mollify people who are being screwed over. It&#8217;s a joke.</p>
<p>The idea that &#8220;nothing is set in stone&#8221; when a) you&#8217;ve already said that because the economy and the IP is too complex that it should just be ignored and you should press on with its destruction and b) because it takes awhile to do ths technology creates a total false impression. Because the entire construct of the thing is already hard-wired. It is hard-wired from the moment they first invite the maker and seller of Copybot to the table, and the reverse engineer of the server code to the table, when the TOS still says reverse-engineering is an offense. </p>
<p>Then you realize that the approach is one of destruction, theft, and crime, in the guise of revolutionary expediency.</p>
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		<title>By: Fleep</title>
		<link>http://www.chilbo.org/blog/2007/09/sl-grid-architecture-meeting/comment-page-1/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>Fleep</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chilbo.org/blog/?p=11#comment-4</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure why you interpreted my post that way, the point is to bring as many people into the conversation as possible so all points of view can be heard and considered.  Or at least that is _my_ intent.

It just seemed that there were two separate but related threads - the system architecture and how assets and associated permissions are handled.  I hope the system architecture will be designed with the most flexibility to implement asset permissions/licensing schemes that protect content creators while still giving consumers portability across regions.  

It doesn&#039;t appear that anything is set in stone yet and it will take time to develop in any case, so we can hash these things out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure why you interpreted my post that way, the point is to bring as many people into the conversation as possible so all points of view can be heard and considered.  Or at least that is _my_ intent.</p>
<p>It just seemed that there were two separate but related threads &#8211; the system architecture and how assets and associated permissions are handled.  I hope the system architecture will be designed with the most flexibility to implement asset permissions/licensing schemes that protect content creators while still giving consumers portability across regions.  </p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t appear that anything is set in stone yet and it will take time to develop in any case, so we can hash these things out.</p>
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		<title>By: Prokofy Neva</title>
		<link>http://www.chilbo.org/blog/2007/09/sl-grid-architecture-meeting/comment-page-1/#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator>Prokofy Neva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 02:23:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chilbo.org/blog/?p=11#comment-3</guid>
		<description>My primary concern for the moment is momentum for an open sourced, scalable, reliable system, because in my mind, we’ll be arguing about the IP and economic stuff for a very long time, and I don’t want to wait that long for an open source self-hosted sim that works with the existing SL world (I am shying away from the term “main grid” purposely).

See, this is just completely extremist. You&#039;re saying that just because something is complicated and has many interests involved, it has to be stepped on, sacrificed, and even brutally removed precisely because it &quot;gets in the way&quot; or something that is supposed to be &quot;more important&quot;.

What is the point of scaling architecture for a world in which no one can rationally participate because their creations, their land, their work are all callously destroyed by the makers in the name of the greater glory of the platform? It&#039;s insane.

Only script-kiddies, griefers, anarchists, mad artists, etc will want to play in such a place. And that&#039;s fine. Except...who will pay for it? Do you imagine you can keep shilling people to pay for this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My primary concern for the moment is momentum for an open sourced, scalable, reliable system, because in my mind, we’ll be arguing about the IP and economic stuff for a very long time, and I don’t want to wait that long for an open source self-hosted sim that works with the existing SL world (I am shying away from the term “main grid” purposely).</p>
<p>See, this is just completely extremist. You&#8217;re saying that just because something is complicated and has many interests involved, it has to be stepped on, sacrificed, and even brutally removed precisely because it &#8220;gets in the way&#8221; or something that is supposed to be &#8220;more important&#8221;.</p>
<p>What is the point of scaling architecture for a world in which no one can rationally participate because their creations, their land, their work are all callously destroyed by the makers in the name of the greater glory of the platform? It&#8217;s insane.</p>
<p>Only script-kiddies, griefers, anarchists, mad artists, etc will want to play in such a place. And that&#8217;s fine. Except&#8230;who will pay for it? Do you imagine you can keep shilling people to pay for this?</p>
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		<title>By: Prokofy Neva</title>
		<link>http://www.chilbo.org/blog/2007/09/sl-grid-architecture-meeting/comment-page-1/#comment-2</link>
		<dc:creator>Prokofy Neva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 02:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chilbo.org/blog/?p=11#comment-2</guid>
		<description>Ok, so I hear you, what you&#039;re saying is &quot;the technology in the hands of an elite few gets to surge ahead and be developed for their needs alone &#039;just because&#039;.

Those who paid tier -- and paid the bottom line for this software company for four years -- then don&#039;t get to have any say about the devaluation of their land and intellectual property because uh, revolutionary expediency trumps the need to take on board any of their interests.

Ok, tough guy, when you&#039;ve made your brave new world, and it has no people in it, you&#039;ll know why. The revolutionary always eats its children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, so I hear you, what you&#8217;re saying is &#8220;the technology in the hands of an elite few gets to surge ahead and be developed for their needs alone &#8216;just because&#8217;.</p>
<p>Those who paid tier &#8212; and paid the bottom line for this software company for four years &#8212; then don&#8217;t get to have any say about the devaluation of their land and intellectual property because uh, revolutionary expediency trumps the need to take on board any of their interests.</p>
<p>Ok, tough guy, when you&#8217;ve made your brave new world, and it has no people in it, you&#8217;ll know why. The revolutionary always eats its children.</p>
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